Thoughts on Operations

I don't know about you, but I'm having a hard enough time making a living from illustration in the current economy. The ever growing list of crowdsourcing, spec-generating sites like 99Designs has added another to its tally, Cameesa. This is a particularly hard pill to swallow. Cameesa's crowd-funding philosophy was almost an ubuntu-esque, anti-spec treatise. Enter "Operations." "Operations" on Cameesa let entities create requests for designs. From your own copy:

How it works? ... Artists submit their Ragnarok Tee designs. ... Members financially support an unlimited number of their favorite designs with $10+shipping. ... Artists & Supporters are rewarded with ongoing dividends and t-shirts (once a designs hits $500). Read the full details OR Start supporting.

Screenshots from the current system:





Most designers are not picked and spend many hours working for the entity's "theme" for free. They end up with designs for a specific entity that are not applicable for resale in most cases. This is much different than creating personal works that can be used elsewhere should the designs not be chosen for print. How likely is it that a Ragnarok games based design will be usable for another purpose? I have similar issues with Design By Humans' "themed" contests that often require work to be created on spec for large clients. Incubus and KISS, really? Good luck selling the Gene Simmons design elsewhere! I'm sure you won't be sued into oblivion, perhaps the final fuck you to the designers leasing their souls one entry at a time. Designers lose, entities win. Spec-alike, for sure. Crowd-funded? More like crowd-sourced!

- Frenden commented 215 days ago

It looks like what Cameesa is doing here is crowdsourcing, yes.

If your 'communities' were only sending out invites to be the designer, to members of their community, and everyone understood who was going to get paid or not paid, it might be a different story.

But, if you have these open calls for artists to submit work towards an 'operation', and they are only selected or denied, much less paid, AFTER they've done the work, then yes, you are asking the designers to work on spec.

So from Frenden's point of view, it's crowdsourcing.

How many of these shirt-projects have you done before?

- concretebox commented 215 days ago

@concretebox this is our first one. We are a very open company, and always trying out new things. Sometimes it's awesome, and sometimes it's painful.

At the end of the day we are just trying to make a service/product that people want, and that helps artists. We don't have draconian policies etched in stone; we're just four guys trying to make it.

- ajcronk commented 215 days ago

One of the problems has always been support speed so you would think with a community the size of ragnaroc there would be lots of gamers that would want to eat up anything game related.
I didn't expect to see such a backlash.

Designing something that appeals to a wide audience is a smart move.
It can however easily become like a tee shirt vending machine wherein artist are only trying to please people rather then focusing on doing the best creative work they can do.

- quakerninja commented 215 days ago

I understand and appreciate that position. Bear in mind all the designers participating are also just little guys "trying to make it." This current policy only devalues designer work further. I strongly suggest a reading of http://no-spec.com if you haven't already.

- Frenden commented 215 days ago

The only way to "help artists," really, is to pay them for work done. Anything else is inherently evil.

- mahatmadave commented 215 days ago

errr.

Google up "bara-chan" and re evaluate your "little guys trying to make it".

The pitch of it, as it was presented is:
"if you're sick of premade designs and think you can do something more in phase with what ragnarok players relate to, submit your design"

If you look at some of the designs there, there's more than a couple that could easily be reused for something unrelated.

Also It's clearly presented as a contest.
AFAIK, Gravity doesn't even benefit from it, aside from "free" publicity.
The way I see it, it started as a good way to have people wear shirts they actually want to wear, not just some ugly half assed printed design because "AHMAGAD IT'S RAGNAROK IT'S UGLY BUT I HAVE TO BUY" and was also spreading the word about cameesa (seriously, all this bitching about this operation is just turning away potential crowdfunders from non ragnarok designs)

Designs created stay the sole property of the artists and license to use is only granted to Cameesa.

- bato commented 215 days ago

There has to be a way for artist here to do the work they feel like doing first and foremost. Then targeting that at the appropriate market.

All the spec work I have ever done has not ended well for me. I felt a little cheated, and I ultimately produce less gratifying results.

A good example is the poker design here. I did the job and never even got it approved for submission, then later mattfoo did the same thing with the same result. A total waste of both our time.

- quakerninja commented 215 days ago

Bato, feel free to continue submitting designs on spec if that's what floats your boat. Again, I'm sure the designs that feature trademarked brands and copyrighted characters will be EASY to resell.

- Frenden commented 215 days ago

But that the point.

All these artists have been shitting ragnarok related art for free and for years. Fanarts related to this game are EXTREMELY common.
Nobody lured them by telling them "OK WE NEED RAGNAROK SHIRTS TO SELL, BUT WE'LL HAVE ONLY ONE WINNER PICKED AT OUR SOLE DISCRETION AND WE KEEP ALL PROFITS WHILE THE WINNER WILL GET 100 BUCKS AND OUR ETERNAL GRATITUDE KTHX ."
All participants like the game, and like to draw art related to the game.
None knew about cameesa before, and nobody would have tried to sell designs inspired by the game because of copyright/licensing issues.

- bato commented 215 days ago

The greater business model, regardless of the straw-man argument related to the hippy-dippy claim that "The creators of Ragnarok will let the users sell the shirts to other companies, man, 'cause, like they're ENLIGHTENED" is bullshit.

To test your theory, why don't you draw a great design with Ragnarok characters and try to sell it on your personal site for profit? According to you, everything would be a-okay!

- Frenden commented 215 days ago

What specs? Ragnarok related and summer theme. Wooo, what a spec.

http://cameesa.com/support/design/443/wet-n-wild-summer
http://cameesa.com/support/design/444/life-aquatic

Those two for instance. They fit the specs, yet the design can be reused easily.

I quote the operation:
"If you are an artist, design a shirt and share your love of Ragnarok with the world. "
You don't like the game? you don't know shit about the game? You don't want to spread the word about the game? Then you don't have anything to do. It's another way of asking people "what do YOU want to see on a tshirt?"

- bato commented 215 days ago

I don't think it will translate from the game to supporting my design here. The fans seem to have hired cameesa to be there new cafe press substitute. I think that is what the uproar is over. We here in this community feel as if you are being swindled somehow, or that you are extending an offer outside of the cameesa community that ought to be reserved for members of this site.

- quakerninja commented 215 days ago

Frenden:Imo, you're just nitpicking for the sake of trolling.

- bato commented 215 days ago

I'm not nitpicking. Spec is killing the illustration industry. With the death of print and the rise of crowdsourcing, illustration as a career path has nearly been obviated. I'm glad you can take it so flippantly.

- Frenden commented 215 days ago

quakerninja:

Dunno why. Imagine one of those get printed. Someone asks "where did you buy it?"
Reckon they would say "oh, let me write down the complete url so you don't buy any other shirts"
They would just say "cameesa.com, go and have a look"

how would that not benefit the rest of the cameesa community?

All it achieves right now is that people see those two threads with people going "Fuck you bunch of gamers, you ruined my site" is that potential crowdfunders won't even bother looking at other designs because they feel excluded.

- bato commented 215 days ago

I just feel that a red carpet has been rolled out for ragnaroc at the expense of the hard work of the current members here who have helped built the site with feedback and what have you. I'm a little upset I was not asked about the operation before hand.

I will say that theme style contest was one of my suggestions. If that has lead to this direction then I apologize, my intention was to offer a way of designers and supporters to work on common interest.

Matching up someone that loves dogs with an artist that loves to draw dogs for example. I saw this as a win win scenario.

The normal client for me is either a band, or a clothing company. I wanted an opportunity to use my skills to provide a design that a supporter here would really love. Making the normal joe my client.
I seem to have not thought this out as much as I should have.
I can't help but feel slightly responsible for this current dilemma.

- quakerninja commented 215 days ago

@bato I don't think this is trolling.

Frenden is talking about spec-work, which hurts designers. It's a polarizing issue, and the debate has been held many times.

Let's zoom out, look at what we intended to do, and see if we can come up with something better:

Problem: Ragnarok players want to make t-shirts out of the fan art they are creating. Ragnarok is not a t-shirt company and is not interested in printing and shipping out shirts.

Thought: Cameesa has an interesting way of connecting artists with their fans to make t-shirts. Cameesa knows about printing and shipping.

To solve this, we came up with the concept of an Operation. Is there a better or different way to solve this problem for Ragnarok players?

- ajcronk commented 215 days ago

Fan art is different then what I do. I don't really understand it. Using someone else's ideas, in this case the current and previous character design team at ragnaroc is offensive to me. I have nothing against the game or the people that enjoy it. I just think it was a bad match for this site.
I feel that it puts the cameesa members on the back burner.
I don't think it's a fare partnership for both communities.
I don't want to be over dramatic but it feels a little like a take over.

- quakerninja commented 215 days ago

frenden:

Speculative work—work done without compensation in the hope of being compensated, for the client’s speculation.

Let's say the client here is Gravity. What do they get out of it? "potential" publicity. I'm pretty sure they don't get a dime out of the "winning" designs.
Wouldn't it be easy for them to grab official artwork (there is plenty, and a lot of it is fit for print already) and print the shirts themselves? It would still sell, believe me. People have been begging for merchandise for years. They're already buying overpriced imports from Korea.

Imo it's not spec work. Theme contest maybe, but not spec work. The way I see it, spec work is a cheap way to make a quick buck while abusing artists/developers/translators/any freelance profession (yes I see a lot of spec work as a freelancer in my field and that doesn't make me happy. There's also a lot of undercutting by people starting out. ) Here the only ones benefiting from it are:
- artists that get crowd support
- supporters that can buy tshirts they can relate to.

- bato commented 215 days ago

I'm done arguing with you, specifically. I will not agree with you.

- Frenden commented 215 days ago

I'm sorry it's not working out like that. The fans of the game are just that. Fans of the game, and nothing else. They are not going to go, hay I really like that pink gorilla that is an awesome shirt.

Exposure is worthless to me if it dosen't translate into people hiring me, buying my designs, supporting my projects ect. They are more likely to think hay here is a guy that will work for free, let me recommend him to every cheapskate I know.

- quakerninja commented 215 days ago

I don't know, I know I had a hard time finding the operation itself (no direct link to it, just to the cameesa site) and I looked at the tees and was like "hummm, there's something here".

It's not because you like Sci-Fi movies you can't enjoy a romantic comedy :P

I knew of another similar site (albeit established for a longer time) which I won't name here because it's not nice to cameesa, and the vast range of designs and styles taught me that it always pay off to take a look around.

- bato commented 215 days ago

@quaker, I don't understand the argument completely.

If you, as an artist, choose to turn your back on Operations, how does that affect any of your work on Cameesa to date? You can still submit Cameesa designs and promote them like any other day, correct?

Currently, 98% of the Ragnarok designs submitted are created by Ragnarok-gamers and not the Cameesa artists.

In my opinion, this does not change the game but only adds a different audience to it.

Looking at the big picture, as @bato mentioned, I do agree that a Ragnarok-supporters will not support Pink Gorilla; however, a Ragnarok tee may be printed and someone may be referred to Cameesa to support Pink Gorilla.

Can you explain how an Operation takes away from a Cameesa artist today? The only thing I can think of is that users will migrate to operations instead of the General 'Support' section, but this is no different than if we had 800 designs on the site. You would be getting less looks, and we would have to figure that problem out as well.

Stay vocal, and let us know if there are any hindrances (cause of Operations) the you experience as an Artist, and we will do our best to correct them.

- kamil commented 215 days ago

"Exposure" is the lead carrot dangled out from the slimy hands of spec-gurgitators. Here's a nice summation on the value of exposure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE

- Frenden commented 215 days ago

Kamil, I refuse to give designs to, or financially support, a company that profits off of spec. Ignoring the practice and going about my business in the non-"Operations" site areas does not satisfy my morals.

Which is a shame. I was geared towards subbing lots of tees here.

- Frenden commented 215 days ago

@ajcronk: If the idea was for Ragnarok players to submit fan-art derived images for t-shirt designs, then it could probably have been run as a closed operation, although I can see how that would make it hard for you to market that as a service.

The pro- and semi-pro illustrators are not going to be happy to be competing against fan-art. Can you blame them?

Obviously something about this particular adventure with a new business model rubbed at least a few people the wrong way, and it needs some fixing.

- concretebox commented 215 days ago

I think the twitter user is just upset that you put a big franchise such as ragnarok on your site. Maybe the twitter user doesnt understand that this is what your website was meant to do? I personally like it, and I dont think theres anything wrong with it. The twitter user is probably just worried that original unknown designs probably wont get much crowdfunding if there's licensed well known designs being used.

You got to remember that you cant always please everyone :)~ so no, youre not missing anything.

- Fredthecow commented 215 days ago

I could care less about Ragnarok. If the "operator" were a mom and pop flower shop, I'd feel the same way. Please, educate yourself by reading the articles at http://no-spec.com.

You're arguing for a business practice that harms illustrators. Bottom line.

- Frenden commented 215 days ago

Cameesa from day 1 has been both a crowdsourcing and a crowdfunding site. I guess the issue is what the submissions are geared towards. Ex. An artist submitting artwork of their choosing (of their own self expression) or towards a theme (usually done with a partner).

We have also kept operations as a separate part of the site. Ex. General submissions vs. Themed submissions. Themed submissions were geared towards specific communities and have been given their own area on the site.

As a side note, in addition to spending my free time working on building the site, I do support designs and do a lot of promoting of pieces I am fond of on other sites.

In other words I love the work I've seen and will continue to keep on working on ways to improve Cameesa with Andy and Kamil. As they've said before, this is a work in progress and we may have to go back and re-evaluate some things.

- viktor commented 215 days ago

Might I make the suggestion? Add a #4 to the "How it works?" on the Operation page:

4. Be sure to click on the Support page to see what else is available for support on Cameesa.

And maybe even...

5. Don't forget to click on the Shop page to see what's already for sale on Cameesa.

Not that this will fix any of the issues presented on this thread, but it might go a few inches toward addressing the feeling that the Ragnarok folks are ignoring the rest of the site. Like bato said (last comment, four hours prior to me saying this) an easy to spot link of some sort on the Cameesa home page will make sure the Ragnarok fans find what they want. (Yes, exploring is fun, but some of us barely have enough time to read email, let alone search a web site for a wanted item.)

- Janie commented 215 days ago

I designed the gorilla with Janie who I think is the best supporter ever, I'm bummed I can't do more to get it actually made, not for any prize money, but it's a shirt she and her family would enjoy.
I do art all day long, so as far as a waste of time it's something I would be doing anyway, the difference is weather or not it's a "job" or it's just for fun. I didn't feel the monkey was work, it was a joy to do for me.

- quakerninja commented 215 days ago

I had ignored the email about Operation Ragnarok, so when I saw the themed designs, I wondered what was up.

What's up is... it's just another way to spread the word about Cameesa to a new audience.

I just sent an email to Kamil, telling him about my experience at Wal-mart this morning. Middle Child was wearing "Dimitri was a Dreamer". The eye center manager remarked that he really liked the design. Before I had a chance to respond, both my girls jumped in and started telling him (quite excitedly) about all the wonderful designs they already owned AND all the designs they hoped would soon be printed.

Yes, as quakerninja said, my family would love to have the Pink Gorilla shirt (which they also told him about, lol). In the meantime, we are talking up Cameesa to everyone that will listen. The waiter at our favorite restaurant loved "Our Lady". We wrote down cameesa.com for him. I didn't leave Wal-mart until I wrote cameesa.com on a piece of paper for the manager.

Keep. Spreading. The. Word.

PS Can I add "best supporter ever" to my profile?

- Janie commented 215 days ago

@Janie please do.

We wouldn't be where we are without you.

- ajcronk commented 215 days ago

Done. ;)

- Janie commented 215 days ago

I just want to know something.

Everyone's been screaming "spec work" "crowdsourcing"

Then I must ask:
Who is the client here? (considering how people are bent up against the operator, I would say Gravity here)
Who keeps ownership of the designs (winner or not)? (imo, operation or not it follows Cameesa ToS, so it is a moot point.)
How is the client profitting from it? Do they even get a share of the sales? (I don't think so.)
What is the speculative element in it?

- bato commented 215 days ago

I don't really see it being an issue if operations are being kept in a different section and not mixing with the general submissions. I'm not really an illustrator so maybe I'm not quit getting it.

I like supporting the shirts on this site. I'll admit I was bothered by the operation shirts taking up space in the newly submitted area with everything else, but now that they are kept on their own page I'm cool with it. They don't seem to get in the way.

P.S. I would also like to cast my vote for Janie as the best supporter ever, lol.

- Dalmatinac commented 215 days ago

The problem with the Ragnarok Operation is that you are calling for submissions based on a very narrow theme. Illustrators and designers should not be asked to work to a brief in this way without guarantee of payment.

If a design submitted to a contest such as Cameesa is not chosen for print, the artist should retain all rights in their work and be free to submit it, or derivatives to other t-shirt contests or use it for any other purpose. And this is possible for those submitted to the general competition. It allows people to create work they choose to create.

However, by asking designers to "Be sure to show Characters and Monsters of Ragnarok having a great time in a summer atmosphere!" designers are being asked to create a work featuring copyrighted characters which they do not have the rights to use for anything, other than the purpose of this contest. At the end of the contest, when winners have been chosen, those who do not win will be unable to use these designs on other contests, products or even in their portfolios and their work will be for nothing. It is very similar to creating a logo or a t-shirt for a specific band on spec, in the end if you are creating something quite specific and not being paid, then that is wrong.

On other contests, Threadless for instance, when themed contests are run, participants are told not to include brands or logos in their work and to create a standalone design related to a theme. All designs are eligible in the main contest as well as the themed contest. If the theme had been left simply as "Summer!" you could have encouraged a much wider range of submissions based on a theme suitably general enough that those who do not win would be able to use their designs in the future. But asking for branded designs without guaranteed payment is a very slippery slope to start going towards for many people working in the design or illustration industry.

It is very easy to say that if you don't like it, don't participate. But for professionals, who are participating in the industry as a whole this cheapens their work.

- Twenty_Seven commented 214 days ago

Ah the beauty of choice. Let the Ragnarock fans submit their art. Proffessionals are not being asked to do something against their will. Let the operation exist in its own section, let supporters and the fan artists do their thing. Maybe one of these Ragnarock folks will take a look at the other designs on this site and decide to support, or they may even start submitting some of their other work in the general submission area.

I think growing the cameesa community through operations can benefit everyone involved in the long run.

Those of you offended by the whole Ragnarock thing, would you turn away supporters from your designs in the general submission area just because they got here via Ragnarock?

- Dalmatinac commented 214 days ago

It's hard to call it spec when Ragnarok isn't directly profiting from the operation. If anything, they are only getting the same thing the artist is -- exposure.

Now that Operations have their own section I really have no problem with it.

- thatrobert commented 214 days ago

In no other situation can you ask a professional to do a job and expect to get away with not paying them, There are prisons full of people that have tried such other shenanigans. Yet in design sadly it has become the norm.

But that's kicking a dead horse as far as I am concerned.

Designers adhere to a sort of code of standards and professional practice. And spec violates that code.

Designers doing work outside of the designer client professional relationship are subject to disappointment nearly every time, This is not always the case, but it has made a lot of us art types bitter and sensitive when it comes to dealings of this nature.

I really wish this had been brought up for discussion before the deal went threw. It seems to be that it's a matter of the wording that has opened this can of worms. The operation seems to imply a "for hire" sounding proposal where one top dog gets the bones and the rest are left to wallow in the mud for the gain of one community over another. Or so it seems.

Like I said us design types are often weary of shysters from personal experiences.
It dosen't take much to raise a red flag and unleash the hounds.

Clearly this was intended as a multi community summer fun fest. And of course participation is optional.
In reality is a ploy to have shirts designed for free, printed by, and sold by camessa for the benefit ragnaroc, and no one else.
Unfortunately the unclear terms of the deal, have mad me shy away from this opportunity.

It unwittingly or very cleverly, has crossed the line into a professional issue conflicting with my own ethics as an illustrator, rather the invite me to do something I enjoy and just draw a tee shirt (to paraphrase Mr. Frenden)

I therefore will not be participating.

I hope that sheds some light on at least why me and some of the other art types are a little upset by this.
It's crossed the line from being fun me time drawing to a professional hire with no pay situation. (weather intentional or not)

- quakerninja commented 214 days ago

Actually, (I'm sorry to burst your bubble) but this sort of thing happens all the time in just about every other industry. For example the government or some major company will put out a contract for work and a bunch of companies will invest a lot of time and money and effort (in some cases years and millions of dollars) into bidding for that contract. The winner generally gets a lucrative deal and all the losers get nothing.

Absolutely every company has a policy that any idea thought up by one of their employees (regardless of if the company uses it or not) becomes company property IN FULL. No exceptions. The employee keeps no rights for what was previously his idea just because he thought it up while on the clock.

What it comes down to is this. The operation is purely voluntary. If as an artist you don't want to participate for whatever reason then don't. No one is making you put your time into making designs for the operation. Cameesa set the rules. If you don't like the rules then don't play the game. Plain and simple.

Maybe you don't like the Ragnarok operation. I'm not such a huge fan of it myself. Anime and such never really appealed to me. That's fine. Don't make a Ragnarok design. In the next few months maybe Cameesa will run an operation that you find interesting and enjoyable and then you may want to participate.

Bottom line is that no one is forcing you to participate in the Ragnarok operation. Just because you don't like the rules doesn't mean that plenty of other people aren't perfectly happy with them. Ultimately, you need to stop assuming that all your art is just always going to sell and you need to venture out on a limb and make a product that may or may not sell.

Making money is shit work and your work is no exception.

- tpapp157 commented 214 days ago

Wow I am surprised. I am the Community Manager for Gravity (if you didn't know) and when we were brain storming ideas for a fun creative event Tshirts came up.

We did check many sites for what would be effective, and we came upon Cameesa, it fit very well with what we wanted to do. One problem we had in the past was us being a filter to others creativity (other sites we would have to send 1-3 designs and get them printed, then sell them to our community) that wouldn't let the community truly decide what they wanted for their design. As we spoke with Cameesa (Kamil specifically) we realized how much better it could be by partnering with Cameesa.

Not only would our game community not be stifled by us only allowing x number of designs, but both communities, Cameesa and Ragnarok, would get a chance to hear about each other and possibly take part in each others community in the future.

We (Gravity) are not doing this for money from Tshirt sales, we are doing it so creative shirts can be made by and for the communities. Yes it is content being developed by a community who then consumes that content. That is what the internet is, user generated content that other users partake of, here the content is specifically Tshirts. If you don't want to make a design for others to enjoy; no one can force you, if you don't want to make a design where anyone can make a profit from providing the printing service... then I don't know what to tell you.

Our incentive for coming to Cameesa was that we could have our community come and give their ideas and have a great chance of the idea being printed. If we couldn't get a theme/operation put on cameesa we would have done a forum event where in the end 1-3 designs would have been cameesa submitted by Gravity and then linked back to our forum for crowdfund/purchase. In that case Gravity would have made money, but the creativity would have been stifled, cameesa community would have been 100% uninvolved, and less likely that any community interaction would have taken place.

- Heimdallr commented 210 days ago