Confused? I thought were trying to IMPROVE sales?

While I totally agree that Cameesa's shirt prices could be lowered (and seriously, the new payoff per shirt sold for supporters is gonna make their profit margin so tiny that the only way to go is up), consider that most smaller sites have price tags between $18 and $25. Cameesa is still in the industry standard. Woot can do $10 due to sheer quantity of sales being moved... we're talking dramatically over 200 shirts every day, as opposed to Cameesa which probably has had months that were under 200. Teefury uses cheaper blanks than Cameesa or Woot, and also has solid daily sales. Both Woot and Teefury have independent printing presses handling their work, which is cheaper because there is no middleman. Both sites rely on impulse buys, which drives sales via fear of missing out. Both print little more than they need: Teefury gets pre-orders before printing, which saves them money. Woot likely does the same with their first day sales, though probably prints extra for future sales based on those first-days. Both make extra money selling leftovers as "random" sales.

By comparison, Cameesa needs to print quantity to sell immediately. Their sales are smaller, their base prices are far higher before they start turning a profit because they need a middleman to print their work. There are reasons for higher prices. Also, how does Cameesa compete? Ideally by selling better shirts. Teefury and woot are both chock-full of mediocrity. For many people, spending twice as much for a shirt worth wearing isn't so bad. Even Threadless is $18 a pop normally, and they're one of the biggest sites out there. Way bigger, way more respected, far and away older than woot or teefury. And they make money with $18 and $25 shirts, though I'm sure their sale periods are when the real product moves. They're selling tees at the industry standard. Places like woot and teefury are making a quick buck off whatever schlock will sell, and only occasionally trying to sell worthwhile product.

I agree that Cameesa's prices are a bit higher than they could be, and with some pruning of their new payout plan they could probably shave $3-5 off every shirt without hurting their bottom line (they DO need to profit to print new shirts, y'know), but your logic is incredibly flawed, incredibly cheap, incredibly self-serving, and proves you don't particularly care about the business or the art... just getting what you want.

- AdderXYU commented 96 days ago

So let's see Adder....you "agree" with my "flawed logic" and then you insult me. Sweet! I've often seen your diatribes against people you disagree with, but I had no idea your venom still flowed freely against people who you agree with too. I read your blog every time you post via Google Reader (I've found several gems on your blog, especially "The Lost Gondolier"), and I was getting used to your more positive posts, although again you are basically just talking to yourself on there...hard to disagree with yourself, but keep it up long enough and keep practicing, you might be able to disagree with yourself too! Ha! :-D

My point was simply that prices are too high. I understand Cameesa needs to make a profit, but Cameesa could make an unbelievable profit if they charged $100 per shirt...why not $200? Now we're talking! Oh wait...probably nobody would buy them if they charged that much. Business is about finding a price that buyers think is fair while the business is still able to make it worth their while. If the site WANTS to be the Maserati of the T-shirt world, that's fine. Those who truly appreciate what they have to offer will support it, but just like the real world, only a select few are going to be willing to spend that much money.

I really enjoy T-shirts, and I love buying them, but I just won't spend $25 on a T-shirt. $18 seems more reasonable, but still pushing it. Cameesa seems like it wants to grow in volume, but the key to increasing sales volume is to make it more attractive to more people, not less. Raising the prices so high is going to make a lot of people immediately stop considering a purchase. Am I cheap? Do I not appreciate art? These are most certainly not the problem. The problem is that I only have so much money, and I have rent and food and a car payment too. A T-shirt is not worth $25 to me.

It's a very simple economic principle that when you raise a price artificially for the exact same object you decrease it's demand. Lowering the price will allow for an increase in demand. The VERY REASON Woot and Teefury have so much volume is because their price is more attractive! Watch Woot raise their price to $25 and see how many shirts they sell.

I'm not asking Cameesa's owners to live on bread and pinto beans or get T-shirts printed poorly. I'm simply pointing out that prices are too high, a point you agreed on. 20 cents per shirt commission is great, but only if there are sales after the print. Let's be honest, sales have been slow even with the lower prices. How does raising them help the situation? I realize that with a 20 cent commission, 10 full dollars goes to supporters. I would be fully willing to reduce my share of a T-shirt to 10 cents per shirt to get 5 dollars shaved off the final price, thereby bringing Cameesa's price range down to compete with the "big boys." Cameesa has been experimenting for a while now, and this is a process, and I'm just offering my 2 cents. I run a profitable business and I am very familiar with business principles. I fail to see why my thoughts require venom.

- pakrem commented 96 days ago

pakrem,

I'm sorry he felt the need to personally attack you there at the end. The insults were really not warranted and were pretty much out of line, especially in the context of a site that promotes, "supporting" one another. To insult someone out of the blue like that or even when it was unprovoked, is not very polite or very respectful. I hope anyone who responds to your question in the future, does so with the general respect that we should all show one another.

- dicom commented 95 days ago

What you don't get, though is that realistically, the shirts here are not going to drop past $20, and that is where I disagree with you, and where it is obvious that you don't grasp what goes into a shirt site.

That you honestly think that just any site can do what woot and teefury do is flat out foolish. Again, there is SO much difference. Don't underestimate the power of woot's huge prize to bring in diverse talent, and don't underestimate the power of teefury's curators to know many of these designers personally. And further, realize how powerful the "one day one deal" mantra at these sites is. If you don't buy at woot RIGHT NOW, you're spending an extra $5. If you don't buy RIGHT NOW, you might miss it altogether, because the shirts are so limited. Same at Teefury. Part of why they are so powerful in sales is because of that "limited edition" thing. Cameesa is not that sort of site.

Woot, of course, would sell fewer shirts at a higher price. This is partially because they don't sell shirts WORTH a higher price, and because they have the biggest cheapskates on the planet shopping at their site. But you seem to think that quantity is quality, and that is ignorant. Cameesa doesn't need to move the same number of tees per day or week or month that those other sites do, so they don't need the same gimmicks. EVERY site would sell more cheaper. But it's not about sales so much as it's about selling enough to be solvent, and selling enough to create more work.

That's where the disagreement comes in. To me, a Cameesa shirt needs to really convince me it's worth up to $25, so yeah, it should be cheaper. And I stated long before the price change that a ten cent commission for supporters would be far more economical. But you seem to be unable to get out of the discount bin. As things sit right now, $10 per shirt will go to users, one or two will go to the artist, and at least six, if not up to 8, will go to simply printing a shirt. In a lowest-case scenario, that's $3 profit on a $20 shirt. Your "$100 shirt" commentary was hiLARious, to be sure, but there is simply a profit margin in place for any tee you might sell, and for cameesa to exist, it NEEDS to be more than $3 per shirt. Again, woot can lowball because they're selling such quantity per day (because they launched their shirt site after creating a wildly popular retail site of millions of customers). Teefury can do so because they don't print until they get their money. Both print in-house, saving huge on print costs. Which is basically to say, Cameesa will never be able to both turn a profit AND sell tees reliably for under $20. So yes, I agree, they could be cheaper. I agree they should cut their per-supporter profit. But I also think you don't really understand that there's probably no way they could be the way things are running now.

- AdderXYU commented 94 days ago

Adder, I'm quickly losing the idea that you are reading my post. You basically just agreed with everything I said and yet managed to disagree with me at the same time. I said a $25 is too much for a T-shirt, and you said the same. I also said my thought was that a 10 cent commission would allow for a $5 reduction in the price, which would allow Cameesa to be more competitive with other T-shirt sites without hurting their margin, which you agreed with.

Yet even though you agreed with me on both points, you still somehow managed to "disagree" with me. Perhaps you might find where that "disagreeable" switch is on your person and flick it off for a while. You still have me as a supporter on Woot and a faithful reader of your blog, as you cover far more shirt sites for gems than I have time for, but if you keep disagreeing with people who agree with you...well, I won't finish that.

Quantity is most certainly not quality, Adder, and if you re-read you'll never see that I said any such thing. I am simply looking at the fact this site is advertising itself as a site where you can "invest" in a design. Sorry for thinking like a business man, but when I invest, I like to see what the odds are of a return on my investment. To me, the price is too high and likely will scare buyers away. Quantity may not equal quality, but to convince people to "invest" in something and then tell them that "quantity doesn't matter" when it comes to commissions is a foolish business strategy. Quantity, no matter if low or high, ALWAYS matters when it comes to business.

Cameesa could charge whatever they want if they were ponying up their own money to print these designs. Instead, they are relying on "investors" on the initial print. Investors deserve a cut of the final profits, and it is not unreasonable for them to hope for some return. For this to work, a commission that is good enough (I believe 10 cents is) needs to be in place, and the price of the shirts needs to be reasonable, $15 to $20. Adder can disagree all he wants, but as an "investor" that is my 2 cents. This site will never take off with 2 cent commissions, and it won't take off with $25 T-shirts. The balance is there. We're just not there yet.

- pakrem commented 93 days ago

Hey guys,

Thanks for the feedback. I agree that there is a balance and we are trying to find that balance currently. We raised our prices when we converted our Tees back to AA, and had in-printed tags on all of the t-shirts. In addition, this is the reason for the support increase as well.

The community was forewarned before all of these changes and we still feel that these changes are for the better long-term. Although, there may be a better balance, we like to try things out for a while and make sure that something is not working before jumping ship.

For the time being, the pricier support and shop have both been pretty successful for us, and we are happy with the decisions that we have made.

- kamil commented 93 days ago

in addition, let's try to keep this a positive world with open communication and feedback.

There is enough negativity and hate in the world, let's keep out of here :)

We do welcome all constructive feedback always.

- kamil commented 93 days ago

Thanks Kamil! I'm glad things are working out for you! I've already voiced my thoughts, so I won't be redundant. I just know that for myself personally, prices are a little too high for me to fully embrace the concept. I'm sure I'm not alone. I look forward to seeing how Cameesa grows in the future. :)

- pakrem commented 93 days ago

@pakrem, any time. Also, make sure to sign up for a newsletter so you'll know when we are throwing sales....so you can buy the Tees at a closer to your desired price.

- kamil commented 93 days ago

I guess for me, it comes down to not caring about the investment portion. If I invest in a company, I need to realize it is a risk, not a guarantee. My $10 (or someday $20, if anything I've supported prints in this millennium and I need to re-support) gets me a shirt. To me, what I see is an investment in a design and a designer. I get a shirt that I want, and get to help a designer I respect get a print. To me, this is investment enough. That I even get the 2-cents per shirt that came with my past supports is simply gravy. I have two great shirts that printed partly due to my support. That feels good, and that is investment enough to me. I see no reason to risk $20 for growth potential... this is a small site, and it would take 100 sales of the shirt I supported before I recouped my losses. The shirt is the prize. That I get any cash at all simply for what equates to buying on pre-sale is an incredible bonus. That should be why people are investing... because they love the shirt, and want to buy it.

What that comes down to is less about cash on either side, and more about exposure. No matter what the support price, or the per-user cut of the profits, or the price of the finalized shirt, no one benefits if people aren't coming in. No one gets shirts if new users aren't supporting, and with as slow as it's been at $10, that's likely the case. No one profits, no matter how high or low a shirt sells for, if no one browses the site. Investing is only going to happen if people know about the site, understand the site, and want to buy shirts. The low payout for designers likely drives many people away from subbing their best work here, which can hurt supporting in general. The print kerfuffles in Cameesa's past, along with blank changing and knowing that support can take over a year, all serve to make customers wary of giving that support. In both cases, near interminable waits hurt both supporting and submitting. These are the things that need to be toyed with... I feel that the thing that will really get people supporting is good work, reasonable print turnarounds, and knowing they won't have a Gamer Mother or Coq Music misprint happen to them. Misprinting is all about quality control, and I think letting the masses preview the mocks is certainly a good step there, but good work is all about good designers submitting good designs, which can be most aided by a larger, more active community, and reasonable print turnarounds are all about a larger, more active community that can therefore find more supporters more quickly. You can give incentives left and right, but the only way to truly get more supports is to get more users, and I think that, while sure, I'd love to make money off things I like, there is a lot that can be done outside of pure monetary natures.

- AdderXYU commented 91 days ago

I largely agree with Adder. Shirts were supported at twenty dollars just as often as they were at ten. The problem isn't so much the money as it is the lack of artists mostly. I think if there was a way to bring a lot of traffic to the site regularly to get things rolling for a year and then the site could become self-sustaining. It doesn't need to be related to crowdfunding at all. Just anything that'll bring in the people.

- tpapp157 commented 90 days ago

I don't understand how the new pricier support and shop can be being called a "success." I have 4 supported designs in print now. Back when I only had 2, Cameesa was selling 5 to 8 per month of the shirts I had supported. Now though, I have 4 designs in print, and since the switch to $20 support and more expensive shirts, there were 2 sold in December...through the height of the Christmas season.

I am also supporting 5 designs, 4 of which haven't even moved 1 bit in the last MONTH. I realize that the shirts that I have supported to print and am currently supporting can't tell the whole story, but my cross section of the site is showing a severe move in the backwards direction.

I used to get "new design" e-mails regularly, I haven't received one since November 19. I can't imagine how this could be considered a successful change.

- pakrem commented 67 days ago

One of the two shirts I supported was fully supported within a day. The other within a couple of weeks.
There currently isn't anything worth supporting here, and if there were, I'd never spend 20$ on it. The "cheaper" shirt that they had fit me perfectly and is just as comfortable as any other shirt I own.
And paying supporters at this point is not worth it.

- copo commented 65 days ago

Thanks for the comments guys, we are taking everything you say into consideration and are also keeping track of how well the new support system is going. We have some changes that will happen for 2010 that may bring cameesa to the next level. As we all know, we are still figuring things out here...thanks for the patience.:)

- kamil commented 64 days ago

Hey guys, would love to hear your opinions on this post please,

http://cameesa.com/forum/post/249/the-new-cameesa-vision-getting-rid-of-support-section

- kamil commented 56 days ago

I've supported 3 here that have printed. To this day, I have a total of $1.68 in my account since March, 2009. It's not worth it to me. The first one was $20 and INCLUDED shipping and continues to be a very successful seller (1928. Birth of an Icon).

And $20 + shipping to support = No way. I haven't seen 1 design here I would be willing to pay that kind of money for even if I was willing to pay that much for a tee shirt.

Oh, and just ignore Adder, he is just rude. He makes good points sometimes, but he can't help but insult anybody who disagrees with him.

- snarkygal commented 22 days ago